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Tuesday, September 25, 2007


Joe Brummer

If you want to believe there is an agenda, you will convince yourself there is an agenda. But this begs the most obvious to be pointed out, don't you have an agenda? Doesn't Exodus have an agenda? Why is it bad that there is a gay agenda, but dandy if Exodus has one?

I often ask, but rarely see an answer, what is the goal here, Alan? What are you working towards? What will this world look like if you reached that goal? When you can honestly answer those questions, I will share my official copy of the gay agenda with you.


Oddly funny. In my 15 years of being an out, open gay person, the only people I hear talk about the "Overhauling of Straight America" are anti-gays.

I'd honestly never heard of it until Lou Sheldon started shrieking about it.

Alan Chambers

Joe, Like I said, having an agenda isn't a crime. We all have agendas.

Yet people like you laugh or balk when anyone mentions that there is a calculated effort by the major gay activist organizations to bring about their agenda for marriage, education, etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

Do you not look at articles like the one posted here or the organized movement to change how we look at marriage, education, adoption, etc. as an agenda?

The point isn't having an agenda, but rather helping Americans to see that there has been an all out campaign to bring about a complete change in how we understand homosexuality. Rather than sliding under the radar, I believe that the agenda should be on the table for everyone to view and see what it is the activist gay organizations truly want to see accomplished in this country.

You and anyone else can keep saying that there isn't an agenda and that it's all about people being equal--well, that just isn't the truth.

You and so many of the gay folks that I dialogue with are kind and well-meaning, in my opinion. But, you don't represent the HRC's of the world---they might use you and want to make the world think that you and they are the same in order to slide under the radar, but they have an oppressive agenda. Maybe you are just a willing pawn.


Well, let's see Alan... In 1987, I would have been 27, and if memory serves, this would have been the period in which I had no time to have a social life and spent my 20's and 30's working a twelve to fifteen hour shift on a job which in retrospect amounted to nothing.

So this book you cite didn't mean anything to me then.

The only agenda is the one you're pushing and not making money on supposedly.

Joe Brummer

Alan, You speak of this agenda like it is a secret thing that lurks in the shadows. Perhaps what gay activists roll their eyes at is the word agenda. It has become aligned with a sinister evil plan those gay folks have to take over the world. Perhaps a new way to see this issue is to change the words.

It is my belief that all gay people have the "intention" to change the world to accept us. For far too long we are treated like second class dogs.

You still haven't answered the real elephant in the room Alan. As you work to fight hate crime laws, fight ENDA, fight marriage, fight bullying programs that include sexual orientation, fight GSA's in the schools. Whay is your goal Alan, what do you want the world to look like for gay people?

What is it you are working towards and where are the gay people in that picture?

Alan Chambers

Gay people have every opportunity in America that I do. In fact, they probably have more opportunity than I do.

ENDA and Hate Crimes legislation are dangerous experiments. Just ask people in other countries like Ake Green, the pastor arrested in Sweden for preaching about homosexuality from Romans 1. He was charged with a hate crime. Sorry, the slippery slope is very slippery.

I do believe that gay and lesbian people have been treated poorly in the past and amends must be made, but not at the expense of forcing people to treat homosexuality as the equivelant of heterosexuality.

I am not an advocate of firing people because of their homosexuality, if they are in the secular workplace. But, ENDA might be something forced on churches and religious institutions. That is a violation of my rights.

Sorry, Joe. My agenda is to help people who are in conflict live according to their biblical beliefs. My agenda is to educate our world about the biblical truth concerning sexuality. My agenda is to show people that they do not have to give in to their temptations and urges and to encourage them to give those struggles to the Lord who is more than able to help them. My agenda is to keep homosexuality out of the public schools and to protect our kids from being taught that homosexuality is a wonderful option.

At the end of the day, I don't care if we lose the battles of Hate Crimes and ENDA. I care that people have the freedom to choose their own path when they are old enough to do so.

Alan Chambers

I never said that I wasn't making money. I said that compared to the heads of organizations like HRC I am in poverty.

I make a decent living and I am grateful for that. I make enough to live well.

But, the phrase "ex-gay for pay" and being touted as the benafactors of the rich and powerful religious right are incorrect. When the President of HRC is making at least $200,000 a year and has a budget that far exceeds Exodus' 10 year budget I find it ironic that I am supposed to consider him and others as living second class lives.

Alan Chambers

Do you guys have any comments on the article or do you want to continue diverting?

Joe Brummer

Homosexuality is an option? Since when? That clearly implies choice, Alan. We both know that isn't supported by any science or reality. It is an irrational statement.

Your agenda is one that causes people to suffer. My agenda is to end the suffering. Far to many people have suffered at the hands of those who claim to have "the truth".

Alan Chambers

Um, science shows nothing of the sort, Joe. Point to a study that has proven there is no option. I am living an option and so are you. To say there is no option is the lie.

My agenda gives people information--all of the information. It validates people's right to choose.

Your disgust for my position shows your intolerance and arrogance.


It's a little dishonest to complain about the HRC's budget when the majority of Exodus' activities are "off the books".

Focus on Family is a 140 MILLION dollar a year organization and they promote your group often as well as pay for Love Won Out.

Coral Ridge is also a multi million dollar a year organization that pushes Exodus.

Finally, your salary at Exodus as well as your housing allowance may seem reasonable or even low on Exodus' tax return but you don't mention honorariums for your speaking.

I'm sure you were paid to speak at the conference this last weekend.

I'm sure you get paid by the FRC when you or any member of your staff appear before congress or at a "Values Voters" rally.

Your travel is paid by other groups, your speaking fees don't appear on Exodus' tax forms because it legally isn't part of Exodus' business plan.

Let's not even begin to talk about the money you make by selling books.

So yes, Alan, if we were to go by Exodus' public records on what your business makes, you are making far less than some in the "non-profit" world.

However, if we count your side jobs as well as the mountain of free promotion your books and organization receives from various Christian groups around the country, it would appear that you're doing better than you let on.

Joe Brummer

To say there is no option is the truth. The lie is telling people you are no longer same sex attracted but then follow that with the fact that you have "Temptations" the next. That is the real lie and I didn't tell it, you did.

Your own study showed that out of 73 people only 11 of them were able to "reduce" their same sex attractions. None of them are truly ex-gay. They just call them self something else. The real lie isn't mine.


We all have agendas. We all have value systems and we all want those value systems to be heard.

We live in a great country where we all can be heard and engage the system.

When I first read the paper that Alan quotes I was very upset on two levels. 1) as a Christian man who feels that there is a Value System above all of ours that this agenda conflicts with and 2) as a former gay man who was manipulated by a larger agenda intent on proselytizing a gay worldview. They used my pain to empower their agenda.

By lending my voice and identifying as gay, I empowered a political ideology that told me I was a victim instead of an empowered individual. Now that I don't identify as gay and reject gay political ideology ... I have not felt like a second class citizen ever since.

What should be scary is that if you identify as gay and never heard of the above paper... why is it that all of it has basically been accomplished, and you not know it? Do you not know what those who claim to lead you are doing?

It's called marketing. Marketing implants dissatisfaction and then offers the solution. Civil Rights came from the truth behind the legitimate needs of the protected classes in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Gay rights is coming purely out of a marketing saturation and slogans...not the total truth.

As outlined in Alan's post.


It's called marketing. Marketing implants dissatisfaction and then offers the solution.

Right Randy, create a marketable problem "The Homosexual Agenda" or "Militant Gay Activists" or "The homosexuals are out to destroy the family as we know it".

Then offer a solution. "Donate and we can fight the militant homosexuals".

Then you can spend the money and hire somebody named Amanda to lobby for you.

Please don't pretend we can't see you.

David Roberts

See what happens when you spend the day at an anti-gay pep rally? You know better than this, Alan, or you should.

What if I were to dig up something equally obscure from a paper in the 1940s concerning the "Overhauling of White America"? Would you claim that all those civil rights leaders, volunteers and just plain good people were acting on marching orders from that document? And let's avoid the argument that gay rights are not civil rights, because even if you take that stand the analogy is sound.

Like Joe, I've never read this piece when it was not in the context of an article by an anti-gay organization. There is another one floating around about sodomizing sons and daughters, you may as well put that up, too. I don't know the source, but I do know this one was written during the most desperate part of the AIDS crisis and I'm sure a lot of frustration was put down on paper during that time.

Shame on you for assigning this stuff any more importance than it should have - an obscure article from 20 years ago, not a massive agenda or marching orders. Or would you think it fair for me to assign Paul Cameron's manifestos from the same period to you and others in the "pro-family" crowd?


David, you are thinking about Michael Swift's piece that was explicitly labeled as a satire in the publication that produced it.

What is funny about that particular article is that certain Christian groups omitted the introduction of the piece labelling it as satire and distributed an incomplete version to scare their followers.

It was even read into the Congressional Record minus the disclaimer by an anti-gay congressman.

It has been repeatedly misconstrued by certain types of Christians to show evidence of a "homosexual agenda" (read, boogeyman).

David Roberts

"It was even read into the Congressional Record minus the disclaimer by an anti-gay congressman."

Yeah, I remember that. It's on the web all over, using the "Congressional Record" part to give it unwarranted authenticity for those who don't understand that one can read anything into the record - phone books, etc.

I find all this very sad because I try hard to be fair in my analysis of opposing views. While others may think this post is par for the course, I really didn't expect it out of Alan.

Joe Brummer

Randy, I am sorry to say your words made me sick to my stomach. I have seen the legitimate need of gay couples, who after 30 plus years together have lost it all because families stepped in and contested wills. Believe me their is a legit need for civil rights for gays and lesbians. For you to suggest otherwise is not only cruel and inhuman, it lacks any sense of compassion.

If you are not able to identify with the suffering and need of gays and lesbians and their rights to jobs, housing, etc, it is only because you have closed your eyes.

Joe Brummer

I have to say, as an atheist I struggle with these notions of "god's plan" as I find them all to convenient. The majority of people who claim to know god's plan claim to know it from reading the bible. I struggle with that, especially when it comes to homosexuality. The questions of homosexuality are very complex, and to state the bible has the answers in simple terms to such complex questions is so over simplified.

The whole question of god is incredibly complex, to assume in anyway that a bunch of scrolls found in a cave 2000 years ago can tell us god's plan is so over simplified that I can express how incredibly void of rationale that is.

Alan, you claim here to know God's plan for man and that homosexuality doesn't fit the plan. DO you realize how huge your statement is? Are you really so bold as to tell me you know god's plan? Are you really so bold as to tell me that you can simplify the question of god's existence to a plan that you happen to know?

If you can prove this I will be happy to leave my partner and follow anything you tell me.

malachai levine

Straight out of the ADF. Copy, cut and pasted. Boo hoo hoo. Bitter, party of four table's ready.


But don't you think, Alan, it's rather arrogant and dishonest of you to say you're in poverty when you're obviously not?

Alan Chambers

I posted this article here because the gay blogosphere was once again laughing at the fact that we think there is a gay agenda. This article is an early outline of an agenda that has been accomplished in our world today. Why is this article, written by early activists, so offensive to you guys? I think it was brilliantly written, has been flawlessly accomplished and am only highlighting it so that people see that there is in fact an agenda, has been an agenda and will continue to be one.

Your anger shocks me. This wasn't an attack, just proof.

As for all of the comments on Exodus' financials and my income, you guys have no clue. As any honest tax paying citizen, I report everything that I make. So when you see my income on my tax returns that some on your side have reported on, that includes my honorariums and any income that I bring in.

I have no problem reporting that at each Love Won Out event I make $500. There are 5 of those a year and so that is $2500/year. I have never been paid by the Family Research Council for speaking at their events. This past weekend the Family Impact Summit agreed to pay me $500 to speak for 2 days. I paid for gas, lodging and meals.

As for my book, ALL of the proceeds went to Exodus. Because of an Intellectual Property Clause in our by-laws anything I work on at Exodus is the property of Exodus. I will not make any royalties off of the book, either.

SOME organizations that ask me to speak for them do pay airfare and accomodations. SOme give me an honorarium. As I stated above, those are all in my tax reporting. So what you see is what I actually make.

Now, let's talk about Focus on the Family, the $140M/year organization that we happen to be good friends with. THEY have a conference called Love Won Out that is NOT an Exodus Conerence. THEY pay for Love Won Out, actually lose money on each event, because it is THEIR conference, not ours. Sure, this is a benefit to Exodus, but to infer that it is anything but a Focus event isn't true.

We do not get any money from Focus on the Family that isn't reported. Focus has, in the past, randomly given Exodus monetary gifts. THey have never been the biggest gifts of the year nor significant portions of our annual income. THey are a ministry and we are a ministry.

Coral Ridge, another friendly ministry, has never given to Exodus.

So, you can try to make Exodus look like we are more than we are, you can believe that we are hiding something with all of your heart, but we aren't. And, there is no comparison to Exodus and HRC.

Finally, let's get off the poverty issue. I have never said that I was actually in poverty. I said, again, COMPARED to others I am in poverty. Might have been a bad choice of words. I am not in poverty. Leslie and I make a decent living and we live beneath our means and save for the future.

Alan Chambers

By the way, a friend of mine on the other side emailed me last night and said that I needed to apologize for posting this article. I absolutely cannot for the life of me understand with this post is so unbelievably offensive.

Someone rational, explain why this post is hurtful to the gay community.

Joe Brummer

Why is this offensive? (in my humble opinion)

It has more to do with "why" you posted it, some of which may wrap up in assumptions people have made about "why" you have posted it.

This also has much to do with "history". Historically, the right side of this argument speaks of the "gay agenda" or as they say it, the homo agenda as some sort of secret society thing. It is also painted as a "bad thing". When gays laugh it off, it is for 2 big reasons. The first being the "grouping" factor. To say there is a gay agenda is to say their is a black agenda or a disable persons agenda. It lumps an entire group of people into one. It is void of the diversity within just that group. Different parts of the gay rights movement are important to different people. We are not one group, we are many. It is offensive and invokes a certain sense of anger because most gay and lesbians people are tired of being lumped together under a blanket that doesn't fit.

The second reason is the idea that civil rights for gays and lesbians are a bad thing. You will always have anger returned to you when you tell an entire group of people that they don't warrant or deserve the rights they seek. You have gone as far as to say they we have the same rights when that is untrue in the mind of those offended. It boils down to no this isn't an agenda, it is our lives.

There is also a history with you personally and Exodus. The people who are angry and offended have watched you, followed you, and heard you change your story, change your facts, make claims that couldn't be true. This just looks like another "Cheap Shot" at the gay people. Yes, that is offensive.

It has much to do with looking at this from someone else's shoes.


You are kidding me right Alan? You can't figure out why you should apologize? You aren't a stupid man. You play word games better than anyone I've ever witnessed. And yet, you can't figure this one out? Right!

And then we have Randy saying some kind of silliness! You know Randy, I don't feel like a second class citizen because I'm gay! Thankfully! But that's totally because I don't listen to the crap that people like you spout off! I live an amazing life! Having a pretty amazing partner! Have a beautiful child who just turned 9 years old! Have an extended family who loves me, supports me and with whom I am very close with. I am however treated, especially by people like you and Alan, as a second class citizen because, as Alan so delicately puts it homosexuality "isn't the equivalent of heterosexuality."

Alan, I have one small comment about the silly assertion I've heard you and others try to make about ENDA when you pick events from other countries to try to point out what you say "could" happen here. If you look at all of these other countries you'll find that they don't have something that we as Americans are blessed to have. They don't have a Constituion that provides certain inalienable rights. Go read it again! Because you act like if certain of these things are put through, our Constitution (which has lasted this many years) will suddenly cease to be in effect. That's an argument based on ignorance and fear.


Alan Chambers

How have we changed our story, Joe?

And, I have been very clear about this being a part of the activist gay agenda---maybe I need to sub-categorize even further. I know you are an activist, but I would attribute the real agenda to HRC, GLSEN, etc.

I do believe this is organized and calculated. You think I am ridiculous for believing that but I think you are incredibly naive for not recognizing it.


Calling Alan Stupid? My opinions "silly"?

hmmmm... ok. Thanks for your opinion.


No more organized and calculated than the campaign to stop ENDA or Hate Crimes legislation.

The HRC is one organization.

How many are involved in the Arlington Group and at what point do you all get the same talking points faxes or decide strategy in a conference call?

Yes, Randy, your opinions are silly (and you and Alan have been caught repeating untruth after untruth).

How often have you both resorted to repeating the lie that hate crimes laws don't include ex-gays and will "silence Christians" when it has been demonstrated over and over again that you are telling a lie?

Alan Chambers

Hey Joe,

I am waiting for the scientific proof that there is no other option to being gay.

Alan Chambers


Like I said, having an agenda isn't a crime. OF COURSE, we all have agendas.

The agendas you attribute to the pro-family movement are ones that seek to affirm traditional values and natural marriage....the very thing that the gay lobby is out to change.



You need to pay attention when you read what others are saying. I absolutely did NOT call Alan stupid. I said Alan was not a stupid person at all.

Further Randy, you yourself said that you allowed yourself be manipulated in your former life. As I have read your parroting of the other side now, one wonders if you aren't allowing yourself to be manipulated by this side now. One wonders, after reading your own words, if you aren't one who is easily manipulated.

Your opinions, while equally as valid as my own, came across in your comment as silliness. Why? Because everything I read in your post is just as easily attributable to what you are doing. You make protestations about the other side, then turn around and do the exact same thing. I read an interesting article in Newsweek recently about this very phenominon. It's all about playing games. It's about trying to get attention.

Once again, please note that I absolutely did NOT call Alan stupid. You should also note that I didn't call you a silly man. I did however say that your opinion on this matter was silly. Of course, that's just my opinion.



Show me, Alan how the "gay lobby" is out to change your ability to adhere to whatever traditional value you choose.

So "militant homosexual activists" (your words, not mine) are going to invalidate your family?


These gadflies (aka "ex gays") need to get a life.

Joe Brummer

I will be happy to show you the science that being gay is the only "honest" option. You just did the study. The one that showed on 11 people over 3 years experienced a moderate decline in homo attractions. In other words, they are all still same sex attracted. No one went from gay to straight. Regardless what they have told you or others, they are still gay. They can call it what they want, but they are still gay.

Furthermore Alan, no miracle has happened here, no god, no anything but smoke and mirrors. I know dozens of men who were married, had children, called them self straight and then later in life came out as gay. You are just doing the opposite of what they did and going in the opposite direction. It is no miracle and under closer scrutiny no act of god.

Now, if you really want to talk science, lets have you prove there is a god. Then you have to prove the one you are following is the right one. If anyone has the burden of proof my friend it is you. You are willingly causing others to suffer to please a god you cannot prove exists. To then say through this god that people have gone from gay to hetero which is another claim for which you have no proof. You have not much proof for many of your claims.

How about the thousands of people you claim have gone ex-gay, but yet you could only find a mere 78 to do a study? You make some large claims you cannot back up. Claims that affect the rights and lives of others. Don't be surprised that we are offended. What we really want to see is you backing up your claims, but you haven't.

Butch Law

You go Joe, as you have brought up very valid points. Alan can't answer certain questions publicly or he would lose his job, so he cherry picks the ones that won't stump him. I would like to hear Alan's proof that there is a God, and all the trappings that go along with it. I would also like to hear his comments on lefties, shellfish eaters, and all the other "abominations" or "put to death" threats in Leviticus, and why they seem not to pertain to current time, but his favorite subject, homosexuality, does. Trust me on this one, Alan won't touch any of this. Hear this Alan, you're being called out. Now spill. Or is your checking account to low to buy a spine?
I find it totally ironic and chuckle worthy that the very bastion of people that say gay people are all going to hell, are the very ones going down in flames. And we allll know who's waiting for them there.


I think Butch is right on. I believe Alan has an obligation to back up his religious beliefs with reason, and buck up and answer these questions. His beliefs are why he is in this game anyway. Lets hear it Alan. I would like to also hear proof that all those psychics and channels in the Bible were hearing the true "word of God" while you are at it.

As far as a "gay agenda" goes, isn't it the right wing that has the gay agenda; to convert or wipe out gays and homosexuality? Could this be Alan's way of staying attached to his gay side that he detests and tries so desperately to get rid of so much? Seems so.
I would say gay people have a Gay Acceptance Agenda which is admirable and yields great valor. For people with rational minds, acceptance has eventually always trumped rejection.


So, Alan, if it's not a crime to have an agenda, just what exactly is the purpose of drudging up this 1987 gay porn magazine article? An article, incidentally, which no one on this topic interaction seems to be aware of?


Well, I would jump in this fight, but since the straight looking straight acting gays have already sold me and my trans woman partner donw the river so that can "look just like everybody else," I think I'll just sit back and laugh my ass off.

Silly gays, hating transpeople is wrong!

Alan Chambers

What? Lyssa, please explain.


Alan, wow, can you answer the kid?

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