I Forgive You

In the early 1990's I was a participant in an Exodus Member Ministry and was negatively affected by Darlene Bogle's decision to go back into homosexuality.  To have a leader who had written a book, led a ministry and spoken at conferences make such a decision was challenging for me in those early days.  I was disappointed and mad.  But, I also understood as an adult that we all make mistakes and that just because Darlene went back didn't mean that I couldn't make it.  I appreciate the apology she made, but I don't think she was apologizing to people like me.  Nonetheless, I forgave her a long time ago for saying things that she now indicates she didn't mean and for causing many to doubt that change was possible.

As for Michael, a man that I genuinely like, I think you have said everything about Exodus that needs to be said.  You were involved in an integral part of Exodus in the early days and for that I will always honor you and be grateful as will thousands of others.  Exodus helped save my life and you are a hero for pioneering this great work.  But, you left very shortly after you came and truth be told, I have now been a part of Exodus far longer than you.  I, and so many others, are the ones who have chosen to remain faithful to the mission of this ministry.  I encourage you to move on--live your life.  People are choosing to live their lives how they see fit---just as you are.  You chose something different than me and so many others.  Like Darlene, I don't think your apology was for people like me, but I do think both of you  owe one to those you hurt when you left this ministry.

To all three of you: Darlene, Michael and Jeremy, your time with Exodus is over and you have said your peace.  I encourage all of you to serve the Lord, live your lives and respect the fact that others have, can and will continue to choose a path different than the one you all are on respectively.

I am thankful for Exodus International and the leaders like Frank Worthen, Bob Davies, Joe Dallas, Sy Rogers, Andy Comiskey, Pat Lawrence, and countless others who have shown that people can live beyond homosexuality and that freedom is possible.

Comments

[Scott]

Wow, just wow.

Your "response" to good people shows just what a shallow, threatened, sad little man you are.

Truly pathetic, Alan. I know the pressure must be huge seeing as you'll be out of a career in about 10 years and nobody likes to have to start over when they're over 40 but seriously, you just looked like a total jerk with that response.

[Jane]

Very good post, Alan. I've been walking with God for awhile and am trusting Him now in pursuit of holiness and healing from a life of brokeness including the painful things that bore same-sex attractions. It's hard when those you've been on the journey with are hurting or rebelious and fall into old patterns and make harmful choices. It hurts to see them hurting, and their choices do affects us. We must forgive, as you have, and continue to pray for them. And, with caution out of respect of our own ability to fall should we take our eyes off Jesus, continue to love them.

[Joe Brummer]

Alan,
I read in your statements a need for these people to acknowledge they let you down. While I respect that, I also wonder to myself if they could have really done anything different. The difference here, and the reason I feel they do not owe you or anyone else an apolgy is that they never promised they would hold you up, let alone let you down. They made no promise to do anything for you. If they let you down, it was out of their control. They owe you no apology for something they never promised you in the first place.

On the other hand, the made promises to others. The promised them change. They promised them something better that didn't happen. They touted to others that something would happen that in their own minds they knew wouldn't. They needed to apologize for making promises that couldn't be kept. They have done that.

For you to respond in this way, while I try to be compassionate to where you may be coming from, this response seems to me to be coming from a place of anger and not a place of compassion. I may be wrong, but when someone apologized to someone, you don't ask for more from them, and you certainly don't demand they apologize to you for something they have no need to apologize for in the first place.

The message people are sending you is clear, but you don't seem to be interested in seeing what is in front of you. Promising "change" hurts way more people than it helps. It is time to change your language, your approach and your message to be one that is honest for both you and those you serve.

If you want to live your life in harmony with your faith, I agree you should. I also believe that can be done without promising people something that may not happen for them and Exodus' message seems very misleading. It give people false hope and that hurts many more than it has ever helped. While you seem proud of the successes you have had, you must realize that for ever success story their are dozens of stories of pain. Is that worth it? Truly to risk people lives for a few successes? Answer that question for you, not me.

[Jeff S.]

Alan - I appreciate your comments, as a long time follower of Exodus since the mid-80's when I first sought change myself. I went to conferences and support groups, even saw Darlene Bogle speak once, and have also seen Sy Rogers and Joe Dallas, Mario Bergner, among others. I married 15 years ago, believing that my homosexual orientation would change over time to heterosexual attraction. While I treasure my wife and we have a wonderful intimiate relationship, my attractions as a whole remaim toward men. And yet I have come to differentiate my orientation from my heart for God, and the continued existence of homosexual attraction does not diminish my ability to be faithful to my wife an desirous of a relationship with her in all aspects - spiritual, emotional and physical. My orientation may never change totally, but my heart has, which is a phrase that my friend Casey (who just attended the Freedom conference).
I am new to your blog, but look forward to being an active reader. Just want to say that I appreciate also those who have responded to this post in disagreement, and that Exodus is not about forcing change upon others, but continuing to speak the message of freedom from homosexuality for those who choose it, and "freedom" does not have to mean the end of all homosexual attraction. I am a recovering alcoholic with 24 years of sobriety, and while I still could desire a bottle of beer or a glass of wine, that does not make me an insincere recovering alcoholic. The temptation for men may always be there, and yet I choose to live my life for God and follow what I understand to be his ways.
Keeping you in prayer, Alan.

[TOR]

Thanks Alan for this post! I'm one of the many anonymous strugglers, doing my best to keep the faith of Jesus, and keep myself believing His truth for my life.

Thanks Alan for changing my own perspective as well. Actually, I will have to do the same: forgive. Forgive those who by leaving the journey implicitly are telling me "it's not possible" and discouraging me. Again, many thanks for your post!

Be blessed

[Michael Buss]

Alan: I feel I must repond to this attempt to diminish or somehow dismiss my experience: "But, you left very shortly after you came and truth be told, I have now been a part of Exodus far longer than you."

For your inforamtion, I began my efforts to get rid of my homosexuality at about age 12 (long before you were born). So, "if truth be told", I have been trying to become a "former homosexual" like yourself and have been stuggling with these issues longer that you have been alive.

As for your encouragement to "serve the Lord, live your lives and respect the fact that others have, can and will continue to choose a path different path": I am doing ALL those things. I AM trying to serve the Lord and live acording to my conscience, as you are.

I AM living my life and I am very grateful for God's many blessings (during my EXODUS years and after). I DO respect that others have chosen another path -- I just happen to think it's the wrong path. And as for my apology, it was for ANYONE who may have been hurt by my words or actions -- including you.

[Wilfredo]

Alan,

I want to thank you for posting this.People who despise you will always seek fault and oppose, deny, or take a pessimistic or negative view of you and many like you.

But Exdous will rise above this and will continue it's ministry of reaching out to those in need.

God bless U

Wilfredo

FREEDOM FIGHTERS INTERNATIONAL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomfightersint/

[G-A-Y]

This whole situation is turning into an absurdist play. It'd be great theater if it weren't for the actual lives that are being stalled, hurt, or worse.

[ewe]

I can only say that through his personal pain, Alan Chambers has become the bully that obviously hurt his psyche so long ago. Although i can empathize with the situation, he has evolved his thinking into a distortion and destructive path charading itself as self improvement and spiritual guidance that resembles a twisted image of a twelve step program. One's inner self and sexual orientation should be embraced so as to learn to love another in a healthy way. Alan is nothing more than a victim of a homophobic society that hates anything different and not understood. He is no shining example for anyone. The only thing he has fallen to is the garbage of ignorance.

[Jonathan]

Alan~

I read your response and my heart aches for you. While you don't say as much, this response literally seethes with hurt. And, in your hurt, you've lashed out. We've all done it!

As someone who grew up in the church, preachers kid, very conservative, there was always this divide with me against my attractions and what my faith taught. It wasn't until college that I started on a journey to really bring my sexuality in line with my faith. It wasn't pretty. In fact, I nearly lost my life.

Today, at 37, I still have questions that don't have any easy answers. Somethings have changed though. I gave my sexuality to God! I don't understand it! But, like the old song, "I don't need to understand, I just need to hold His hand!" At 37 I am now in a committed relationship (5 years now), have a great child and am daily in pursuit of holiness. Interesting thing though about pursuing holiness which many preachers, teachers, etc., seem to overlook. The pursuit of holiness goes hand-in-hand with the pursuit of peace with all men. If you aren't pursuing peace with your fellowman, then your relentless pursuit of holiness is all in vain. Kind of like the scripture that talks about having all these great attributes, but that they are nothing if there isn't love.

I guess what I'm saying Alan (which I know is informal given that we've never met in person), is that your response, for someone who talks a lot about the pursuit of holiness, seemed lacking when it came to the pursuit of peace. Pursuing peace with our fellow man goes hand in hand with our pursuit of holiness. And the clear indication of the scripture is that without either of those two being in place, we will not see the Lord.

Blessings!

j.

[Greg]

It is a sad war between two allegedly competing sides, each purporting its way as the healthy and best. And it is a war that reminds me it is not change, but wisdom that can be a long time coming:

“God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.” ~Reinhold Niebuhr

[Jane]

If there's one thing I can tell you about God, it's that He loves you, Ewe. No more, no less than anyone else.

[Jeremy]

I grew up in gay culture and for years beleived the lie that no one could change.Alan I am very thankful that you are standing
up for people like myself.

When I was younger I bought
the silly tales by gay activist,
that just because homosexuality was in wildlife that meant it was "normal".

I have always belived that Gay people and Gay activist are two different groups. I love to talk to gay people but gay ativist are beyond talking to.

The gay activist through means
of intimidation not science get some of americas most cherished medical institutions to bend to there demands.

The name calling by anonymous folks like "ewe" is symbolic of this intimidation.

They are obssessed with the
idea that people might be able
to change and that they have not.
It is this bitternes within them that drives this biting sarcasm.

Alan these so called critics of other peoples lives are without merit nor meaning and simply nonsensical.That we have changed is is our business and our life not there's.

Gay activist always scream to leave them alone, yet that is what we ask that we be left
alone to pursue "our truth".

The only time the gay relativist becomes an absolutist is in the area of reperative therapy, not when it comes to a sex change
operation which many would say has much more consequences.

The trouble with gay activist
is that they lack the power of conversation but not the power
of speech.

[MichaelBussee]

Jeremy: Come on. It is insulting to say that "gay activists" (and I suppose that by that you mean "anyone who disagrees with EXODUS")lacks the power of conversation. Don't be ridiculous. I don't make such claims about you.

And as for leaving you alone, leave US alone. Stick to ministry, get out fo right-wing Republican politics and quit trying to undermine our civil rights.

Finally, I am not in the least bit upset or threatened by the idea that some people can "change". That is their right. I just want EXODUS to be honest about what "change" means and admit (as Joe Dallas already has)that "Ex-gays" and "former homosexuals" are just "Christians WITH homosexual tendencies who would rather not HAVE" them.

I am glad he and Alan have finally told the truth about "change" -- that it is a lifelong struggle and may never result in becomeing heterosexual. Take their example. Be honest, REALLY honest with the public. Make it a priority! Look over your advertizing BEFORE you broadcast it nationwide so you don't have to look foolish and apologize later.

"Sudden, radical and complete" may not have been a deliberate lie, but it sure was one heck of a stupid mistake.

[Alan Chambers]

Michael,

For the record, Joe Dallas, Bob Davies and others have been widely quoted for years about the issue of change being a long process and one that inlcludes temptations. My statements in the LA Times and on CNN were not new--just a reiteration of those who have gone before me.

I will dig up the exact articles I am referencing.

Alan

[Alan Chambers]

Articles/Videos referenced above:

ÿ Joe Dallas said in a 1990 interview with the LA times that he had never had anyone finish counseling saying they were completely free of homosexual temptations.

ÿ Joe Dallas said in a 1992 cover story for Christianity Today that it is possible genetics could play into homosexuality, which only proves we are a fallen race, both physically and spiritually. The same point has been made others on numerous occasions.

ÿ Bob Davies stated in an Exodus Standard newsletter in 1992 that it was "unrealistic" for people to expect to have no homosexual desires or temptations just because they have abandoned that behavior.

ÿ In a 1992 video titled "Homosexuality and the Reality of Change," Jonathan Hunter stated that it was "unbiblical" to expect temptations towards homosexuality to vanish if you've been involved in that sin.

[Alan Chambers]

EWE: you sound an awful lot like Wayne Besen. Wayne, is that you?

[MichaelBussee]

Alan: I know that the things you are saying are not new. I know that other EODUS leaders have said them before -- just not loudly enough, frequently enough or clearly enough. So some are justifably upset at what seems to be (at times) deliberate deception.

EXODUS's "Christianese" claims, using misleading terms like "freedom from homosexuality", "change", and "former homosexuals" -- along with those recent ads that erroneously promised "sudden, radical and complete" change -- well, it gives the impression that you are promising heterosexuality.

Be VERY clear with the media, EVERY time you speak, try to clear up this matter. You are doing a good thing by trying to makeit clearer. Anything else is false witness and the message of a SLOW STRUGGLE gets lost in all the hype.

[Rev. R. Daniel]

I am new to this blog so forgive me for being blunt. The fact of the matter is that anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their savior, (asking forgiveness for their sins) and Gods ultimate sacrifice for our sins are doomed to an eternity in hell. All change is a slow change. Even Paul the apostle said that he must ask forgiveness daily for his sins. God DOES NOT expect us to be perfect! God expects us to PURSUE perfection!! In other words God wants us to always be moving forward in our relationship with him. This begins by first reading and studying the scriptures. Which plainly teaches that homosexuality is an abhorrent sin against God. Please all who read this fall to your knees and beg Gods forgivness for all your sins regardless of what they are! God can and will begin healing you if you will just simply ask.

[Dean]

an interesting, though somewhat disingenuous post.

the apology from the three was primarily addressed to those hurt by exodus' anti-gay message, the "you can't be gay and christian" message, and who as a result intensified their self-loathing over being gay.

i understand, alan, that you were also hurt by former exodus leaders "going back into homosexuality," just as you are surely hurt (both personally and professionally) by the entire ex-ex-gay phenomenon. the reason for that--it seems fairly obvious--is that ex-ex-gay people come across as far more authentic and healthy than an ex-gay person ever could. that's probably why 56% of the american people think that a person can't really change his/her sexual orientation. like it or not, most americans seem to think you're just fooling yourselves.

but my point, alan, is that you can't really believe that these three were apologizing for "going back into homosexuality." clearly they weren't. you just wanted to take a moment to express your frustration with what you feel is their betrayal of their (er, your) faith.

that's a little bitchy, isn't it?

[visitor]

I got two words:
Charlene Cothran
people CAN change

All the people know who've been "in the lifestyle" if you speak honestly with them talk about the pain and loneliness the life held for them.

The "apology" the 3 ex ex's gave was nothing more than an event timed to gain publicity for a pro gay gospel that doesn't hold up.

Struggler here, not on the outside looking in. How ironic that giving people HOPE is considered "hate" by pro gays. Truth is a lie and lies are the truth.

Alan Chambers and rest of Exodus, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for what you're doing. You've given me hope.

Christ calls us to die, not just say "the heck with this battle, I'm giving in" and indulging ourselves. Who wants to die? Not a popular thing. No wonder more don't "successfully change." But it's a process not a microwave event.

By continuing to love those who bash Exodus and what Exodus is doing, and not being hostile, hopefully the door will be open to them when they have their eyes opened. Kinda like the church being educated to welcome strugglers since Jesus died for ALL of us and LOVES ALL OF US.

Thanks Alan Chambers for your leadership, keep up the good work

[Jonathan]

"All the people know who've been "in the lifestyle" if you speak honestly with them talk about the pain and loneliness the life held for them."

I couldn't disagree more strongly. There was a time in my life where I was a "party boi." The party lifestyle did nothing but leave me feeling like I was lacking something. Even with strong family support, there was an emptiness. However, I was smart enough to recognize that it wasn't being gay that brought on that emptiness, it was drugs, promiscuity...things that almost always leave a person feeling worthless.

For the life of me, I don't understand why so many former gay people seem to think that there emptiness and loneliness was a result of being gay. Ask most any straight person who leads a life filled with drugs, promiscuity and you'll find people who are ultimately unhappy and unfulfilled.

I guess I was blessed in that I grew up in a family that was filled with love, prayer and a sense of togetherness. My parents, pastors married 40 years, reared us in an atmosphere that fostered love, respect and analytical minds. Even though being gay runs completely opposite to the Christian beliefs I was raised with, I was also raised to look at things objectively. I understood early on that I got involved in drugs, promoscuity not because I was gay but because I didn't think God must really love me because, as much as I begged, received counseling, etc., I was never able to "overcome" my makeup.

Today I have a beautiful life. My partner and I have an amazing child who will be 9 in a couple of months. We have an amazing group of friends who love us and who we love back. We have parents, siblings, etc. who respect us and love us, even though they may not agree with us. More than anything though, we've found the love of God to be real in our lives!

Empty? Lonely? Not by a long shot! Having been around a while, I can tell you that people like me are the rule, not the exception!

Blessings!

j.

[MichaelBussee]

On Exgay Watch, Alan admits that this "I Forgive You" post was MEANT to be terse and dismissive and that he was really just "playing their game". It was sarcastic, manipulative and mean-spirited.

He calls my apology to those I might have harmed "hollow" and "self-serving". He tells me, in effect, to shut up and "move on".

This really shocked me. Recently, Alan has posted that he "genuinely likes me" -- and he has called me "friend" several times on this blog and elsewere.

Makes me wonder how he treats his friends. I NEVER play games with my friend's emotions or dismiss their real life experiences. I don't call them "hollow" or "self-serving".

Alan seems more concerned about nursing his own narcissistic injury (claiming that we tried to "hijkack" his conference) than he is in actually listening to the TRUE stories of people who have left EXODUS after years of struggle.

Current EXODUS members BEWARE. You could be next -- if you decide to be honest and admit that your orientation hasn't really changed.

Too bad Alan couldn't take his cue from Karen Keen, an EXODUS member who took the time to go to dinner with some ex-ex-gays and attend the Survivor's conference. Here's what she had to say about her experience:

"As we munch on bok choy and shrimp, Scott, Sonia and I listen to stories and concerns regarding ex-gay ministry. Our goal is not to criticize or argue, but to take the concerns seriously and learn how ex-gay groups can improve their ministries.'

She promised to take these concerns to you, Alan. Why not follow her example? Listen. Take the concerns seriously. Learn and improve. Is that too much to ask of a ministry that is supposed to be reaching out in love?

[Laura Leigh]

This is a strange side of the discussion to be viewing. I had read that there was a survivors conference running alongside the Exodus conference. I couldn't imagine that the Exodus leadership could really leave the conference they were responsible for and come over to hear the stories of the ex-ex-gay.

I'm not even in the heat of the conversation and I receive some sort of link or email most months to some personal story of the many abusive experiences people have endured. However, except for the one strong experience I had with Fred Phelps and the wierdos from Westboro Baptist Church, the abuses I've experienced in my years of recovery have come from what I read from the ex-ex-gay.

You'd think that MOST member ministries do some sort of shock therapy or brainwashing of their participants. I guess I am lucky. I just haven't experienced the widespread abuses that are alluded to in these discussions. While I don't deny that abuses exist, I can't imagine what conflict or mental anguish must be experienced by men and women desiring solid discipleship, growing faith, repentance and such but who encounter people who claim to be Christians who have aimed their purpose or "cause" at dissuading other believers to even attempt to walk in holiness. It was never meant to be this.

I've read accounts of Michael's story...but nothing yet about where a man's faith allows him to leave his family and join to another...nothing about the ongoing walk with God...nothing about the vibrancy of the transforming life of Christ.

Michael wrote in the post above "I NEVER play games with my friend's emotions or dismiss their real life experiences." I'd have to say that he does, indeed, dismiss their real life experiences. That is, in fact, the thrust of Michael's work.

Has Darlene's story gone into the shadows? Who forced her into the church? Did others come alongside her an reach out to her in her anguish from abuse and fears? Were good, well-meaning Christians coming along and meeting her at the place she wanted to be met at? Years later, after she had become "famous" for her testimony, did she continue on the journey to dealing with the abuses and fears? In the end, what is done when my sister in God feeds off of one she is trying to serve? Is this talked about as Darlene was one of the abusers in the ex-gay movement? No matter how we "feel" there is simply an issue of ethics and her relationship was simply unethical. By "unethical" I mean abusive.

It is convenient to name the name of Christ but it is strange to come and read a blog post like this and to read the responses.

It seems this is a battle of testimonies. One says they are experiencing freedom in leaving their gay life. Another says they ONCE pursued that but NOW they find freedom by leaving THAT pursuit and returning to gay life.

What if someone were to come along and assert that the ex-ex-gays were a deluded and/or confused bunch of folks who were denying their true selves in pursuit of an identity inside a system that CAN'T be honest enough to recognize that some do leave and really find lasting peace and freedom. Would it be strange to be a target? Would it be strange to have your every sentence scrutinized simply because you were making them? If you had to endure that (I'm saying that you don't have to endure that), what would it feel like? Ah, you're not really gay. You are pretenders! You are confused! What makes your stories so factual? Why do your stories have so much credibility in your eyes and in the eyes of our society?

I'm just asking.

[MichaelBussee]

Laurie said: "I've read accounts of Michael's story...but nothing yet about where a man's faith allows him to leave his family and join to another...nothing about the ongoing walk with God...nothing about the vibrancy of the transforming life of Christ.

Laurie: I have NEVER said that my faith "allowed me" to leave my family. In fact, I have said (MANY times) that cheating on her was sin and that the divorce was a tragedy -- for all of us.

I have apologized for both these things (MANY times) and have asked for God's forgiveness. We BOTH decided we had to divorce because I was not straight We should not have married in the first place and we should have recieved STRONG counsel NOT to do it -- instead of happy applause that I had "changed".

My ex-wife deserved (and now has) a heterosexual husband that can love her emotionally, spriritually AND sexually. She is a lovely person and deserves that -- after all that she has been through.

Regarding my ongoing walk with God and the vibrancy of my faith -- this blog doesn't have space to tell the story! Jesus Christ died for me and has paid the full price of my sins. He loves me and has transformed every aspect of my life -- He just didn't make me straight. I am only trying to tell the TRUTH about my own experience and am accepting responsibility for the harm I may have caused. I am sincere in this. Unlike Alan, I have no need or desire to "play games".

[Alan Chambers]

Dean,

56% of Americans believe that change isn't possible because the media is so good at portraying the ex-ex-gay story as the whole truth. The media is very biased and selective in their reporting on Exodus and those of us that have lived a decade and longer far beyond the addiction and bondage that we knew as homosexuality.

[Jonathan]

"...far beyond the addiction and bondage that we knew as homosexuality."

Alan,

I'm having a hard time with that one. It appears to me that you've basically said that being gay is nothing more than an addiction. You now live beyond that. But what does that mean? That some kind of speak that doesn't compute with me. I've heard Randy talk along the same lines of "living beyond" feelings. I have no desire to live a life that isn't mine. I have every desire to live a life that is pleasing to God.

I don't understand why, since my earliest recollection, I've been attracted to guys. It certainly doesn't fit with the faith I was raised with. Then again, nothing about my life fits with what organizations like yours say it should. My father was active in my life...still is. My mother loved and nutured all 4 of her kids with equal abandon. Together they were and are a cohesive unit. When they first heard the message that comes from you guys, the bought the guilt you sold that I was gay because of something they did (or didn't do). It killed me to watch two strong, loving people, internalize guilt over something that had nothing to do with them.

I haven't totally been able to align my faith with my sexuality. So, I've given my sexuality to God...placed Him first. My sexuality didn't change. But one thing I have learned in the midst of all of the thigns I've been through is that God doesn't work in the ways we like to prescribe for Him.

Which brings me back to my point (I tend to get sidetracked). It wasn't until I was really, truly honest with myself, that I began to experience healing and wholeness in my life. And part of being honest required me to realize that homosexuality was not the root cause of my addictions but something my addictions played off of. It was an easy thing to blame. Much harder to have to question why God would create me with something so apparently displeasing to Him.

j.

[MichaelBussee]

Alan: You speak of "those of us that have lived a decade and longer far beyond the addiction and bondage that we knew as homosexuality."

Interesting choice of words: "...the addiction and bondage that we KNEW as homosexuality." You make the mistake of equating the "addiction and bondage that YOU knew" with homosexuality. That's YOUR homosexuality. Take Randy's advice and don't "project your experience onto others".

It's also VERY revealing in terms of what you DON'T say. You don't say that you have become heterosexual. Only that you are "living beyond" the pattern of addiction and bondage that YOU experienced. Just like Joe Dallas, you're just a "christian WITH homosexual tendencies who would rather not HAVE those tendencies". You're not "ex-gay" OR even "former homosexual". You're still gay, Alan. Being married doesn't change that.

You have EVERY right to live in accordance with your beliefs, but you have no right to dismiss those who have been harmed by EXODUS or to "play games" with sincere apologies.

You wrote a book about "grace", but your response is anything BUT gracious. If you won't listen to me, try listening to those who attended the Survivor's conference, including some courageous and gracious folks from EXODUS -- who put their preconceptions aside and really LISTENED. You owe the Survivor's an apology-- not a self-righteous, game-playing brush-off of an apology that wasn't even meant for you.

[Cho]

Thank you Exdous for all you
do! My son is reading the book
you wrote Alan and he say's it
has been a great help to him.

Cho

Thank you

[Stuart H.]

Alan, keep up the excellent work. Speak boldly and plain, always giving the glory to Christ.

Michael, I agree with Alan - get on with your life. You ruined your ex-wife's life and probably many within your family and hers - leave others alone now. You dumped the gospel in exchange for a false one and your sin. You made the choice and now you are living with the consequences.

To brag about what you've done and apologize to those "you hurt" should have been to your family, your ex-wife and her family. You've done enough damage.

Alan, stay close to God. Speak the truth - YES, homosexuality is an addiction and bondage. You've been set free by Christ. God sees you differently now - you are white as snow. You've turned away from the flesh and do so daily.

We all struggle with some form of temptation, yet here is where the road divides for you and Michael: you don't give in to it where the temptation turns to sin. Michael does and glories in his sin.

You are a man of God and a leader. People look up to you and you are a trophy of grace - NOT DISGRACE - like those who have embraced a false gospel and path of sin - calling it "of God."

Keep up the work you were called to do, and keep strong. You ARE under attack and many are praying for you. Blessings. Stuart H.

[MichaelBussee]

"Alan, keep up the excellent work. Speak boldly and plain, always giving the glory to Christ."

Speak bodly and plain? Nah... Drop "Ex-gay" then use "former homosexual" instead. Insincerely "accept" apologies that weren't even meant for you. Dismiss true experiences as "self-serving and hollow". Call people your "friends" and then attack their integrity on your blog and elsewhere.

Make dishonest "promises" that are only meant to get your critics off your back. Censor your staff and me. Then try to give the glory to Christ.

[Darlene Bogle]

I've read the many posts, Alan and I need to jump in here.
You stated you were open to dialogue with me and yet, I've waited over 7 months for a phonecall or email response to my sending you a copy of the God and Gays movie DVD.
To the woman who felt like I was also guilty of an abuse of power because I became involved with a client at my ministry- she is right. Although Des and my relationship was not initially sexual, when we realized that this is where God was leading us, I left my position at the church, and we closed down Paraklete ministries. I didn't go back to a lifestyle, I chose to embrace my spirituality and my sexuality as a gift from God. I would hope that others can see a message of hope here, not of failure and dispair. The hope is that we can celebrate who it is that God created us to be. I spent over 10 years in ministry...not just a few months. I thought I was ex-gay because I had no SSA for a number of years. When the attractions returned,I needed to evaluate them in the context of my spiritual life. I would not trade one day of my "life" with Des, for the deadness of spirit I experienced without even recognizing it. Alsn, I pray for you and the ministry leaders on a regular basis. I know that God has called you to peace, but I hope you can hear with your heart, the stories of those who have no peace because of Exodus's message. I'm done with this dialogue. If I owe you an apology so that you can beat peace, consider it given. "He drew a circle that shut me out, heratic rebel, thing to flout. Love and I had the wit to win, we drew a circle that took him in."~Edwin Markam. Let's talk further in heaven some day. Darlene

[Stuart H.]

Darlene, who do you think you are kidding? You have failed. You deceived so many. You and Michael both sinned in the worst possible ways - affecting how many people? Then, how dare you claim your "sin" was "a gift from God??"

You have been disgraced, not found "grace" with God.

So many looked up to you. So many trusted you. Yet like a "dog going back to his own vomit" you totally betrayed the ones who sought your help, then you have the nerve to call that a "gift from God."

Everyone sees the deceit, the lies and the fake gay gospel you, Michael and others hide behind.

If this be the road you booth choose, go and leave others alone. Stop dragging Christ into your sins. Move on and give others a fighting chance. YOU are the ones who cause others to stumble because of your sin.

If you fell off the wagon and want off, then go. Leave everyone else alone. Just because Darlene and Michael failed, doesn't mean you have to drag everyone else down with you.

Deception and delusion is so strong because those who are deceived and deluded don't even know it.

I pray one day your eyes are opened, before it's too late. Christ is always there with open arms waiting for the sinner to come back home. We honestly hope you come back to Christ. It's never too late/ Just remember, none of us is promised tomorrow.

We all reject your lies, your false gospel and false christ.

Again, go and move on if this be the path of sin you choose to embrace. We who know the Truth will stand strong, because we have made the change, and you can never tell us otherwise.

I pray you will stop the hurt and pain you are causing so many "in the name of Christ" to justify your sin. You and Michael are preaching to the wrong choir here. We follow Jesus Christ and Him alone. As His sheep, we know our Master's voice.

It's quite clear it's not His voice either of you are hearing.

[Alan Chambers]

Stuart,

Please be careful. Your comments about sinning in the worst possible ways and failing are a bit harsh. We all sin and it is all bad and failing is a part of life---thank God for his grace.

I do agree with you, however, that God would never say homosexuality or homosexual relationships are okay---even good Christian people can be decieved by the voice of a smooth talking enemy. Anyone who believes that God is saying their sin is acceptable is listening to an imposter.

[visitor]

The person posting as MichaelBussee said
"Although Des and my relationship was not initially sexual, when we realized that this is where God was leading us..."

Dude, that doesn't even make sense. God was leading you into something he is against? I struggle too, but to say what you are saying is to basically say "This must be right because it just feels so good."

It DOES feel good, no doubt, on some physical and maybe even emotional level, but you are deceiving yourself if you think that God would lead you into sin. Not judging, b/c I wish I didn't have the SSA, but it gets less as you focus on the Lord. May never go away, nobody is saying it ever will, but that doesn't mean you bail and just give up. This is a race of endurance, not a sprint. God isn't done with you. Did you give him 30 days or a few years and then just say, oh well, must not be for me?

[Greg]

Thank you Darlene for such an inspiring post!

The retired and wise Baptist preacher told a story as part of his sermon this past Sunday. Upon the loss of the "family dog," his son asked if the dog went to heaven. Knowing this to be a tough theological question in the mind of a small boy, he thought for a moment and then said, "Son, heaven will be whatever it takes to make you happy. But know this: the things that make you happy now may not be the same things that will make you happy in heaven."

Like you, Darlene, I'm not living "the lifestyle," I'm rather living my life as I believe God intends for me to live it - with authenticity and honesty. My partner and I have a life together that is fulfilling, meaningful, and with mutual love and caring. He and I have found our peace. Words cannot describe the peace I have found since I have embraced the imago dei within me - just as I am.

Our peace is our "heaven." Eternity is right now, and it is what we make of it - heaven or hell for ourselves and those around us.

I spent so many years exhausting myself emotionally, mentally, and spiritually in order to live up to the expectations of my faith community, family, and society. What a glorious day it is when one lays all that down, and contrary to what they were told, they find genuine peace!

The question for each of us is, "What is our peace?" And the question from our lips to others should not be, "This is what you need," or, "This is what is right for you," but rather, "How can I help you reach YOUR peace?" We err when we try to force every individual into a pre-set mold. When we do that, we wrongly assume that what has brought us peace will bring others peace as well.

What may indeed have been a traumatic experience for some turns out to be a liberating one for others. We are all different and we are enriched through our experience with diversity.

[MichaelBussee]

Contrary to what your poster's continue to say, I did not, have not and WILL NOT "embrace a fake gospel or a fake Christ."

I was saved and am saved by the SAME gospel and the SAME Christ as you. Saved by His blood shed on the cross. Christ died for our sins -- yours and mine. He rose from death to conquer death once and for all. He is my Lord and Savior.

You guys seem to find it hard to believe that we "Ex-ex-gays" are REAL Christians -- because if we were, we would agree with YOU and your views -- that homosexuals are "broken", "sick", "disordered" and in need of "repair" -- a repair which you CAN'T deliver. Even Alan says he's never met an "ex-gay" -- something I have been saying since I left EXODUS.

We (like you) are real Christians and we love the Lord. We just don't believe that homosexuality is evil and that you will burn in Hell if you keep doing it. Many sincere, Bible-believing, born-again Christians DIFFER on what the Bible does (and does not say) about homosexuality.

Of course, homosexuality CAN be sin just as hetersoexuality can. What makes something sin is the MOTIVATION behind it. You guys don't REALLY believe that we must obey ALL the Old Testament laws, do you? No.

You pick the ones you like, disregard some -- and impose the rest on us. We are not under law, but grace. It is not our own doing. It is a GIFT of God.

EXODUS claims to "love the sinner but hate the sin" and yet EXODUS continues to hang out with NARTH -- an organization that believes that gays boys should be teased and ridiculed (Berger), that the "slaves had it better off" and that anyone who doesn't think so is an intellectually stunted "Marxist" (Schoenwolf) and that gays should be tatooed, quarantined and even killed (Cameron). All of these things are well-documented and Alan had promised he would do something about it. When, Alan? How long will you tolerate that kind of evil? Do the right thing and keep your promise.

Calling US evil while EXODUS tolerates that kind of hateful nonsense makes me wonder about the sincerity and reality of EXODUS's brand of "Christian love". Don't just delete this, Alan. Answer the question. What do you intend to do about NARTH?

[Alan Chambers]

1. I am confident that you and Darlene know the same Jesus I know, Michael. I don't think you are evil, I know homosexuality is.

2. NARTH doesn't believe in ridicule, abuse or agree with slavery. As I have said before, those articles were terrible and should never have appeared on NARTH's site. If NARTH believed in ridicule/bullying or endorsed slavery I would have no problem ending our relationship with them---they don't support any of the above, Michael, and you know it. If I am not mistaken those articles are no longer on the NARTH site, which was a great move.

3. We NEVER use the phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin." I use that as an example of wrong attitudes because that cliche is very condescending.

[Hope]

I have read with great interest and much consternation this exchange of comments. I have lived both sides of this debate. I engaged in lesbian behavior from the age of 18 to the age of 26. Eight prime years of my youth were devoted to relationships with 3 different women. I, personally, could never reconcile a lesbian sexuality with a whole hearted pursuit of God. I really tried and God knows I wanted to but my concience simply would not allow it. For the longest time I counted the costs (as Christ urges us to do)and chose to reject God. The tide turned while I was sitting in a lesbian bar on New Year's 1999. The Holy Spirit encountered me there and I knew my life was going to change... and I wanted it to. What came next was HARD but almost ten years later I can say it was and has been so worth it.

I did not attend my first Exodus conference until 2002 - a full 3 years after I had walked away from lesbian relationships. I have attended two Exodus conferences and missed a third (which was practically held in my backyard in the neighboring city of Asheville, NC) because it conflicted with my wedding day in 2005. My experience with Exodus has been positive. No one forced me into their ministry and I certainly never felt pressured by their leadership - only encouraged. Now, what am I? Am I ex-gay? Former practicing lesbian? Do I 'live beyond my addictions'? Am I a heterosexual woman with unwanted attractions? The truth is - I don't really care how people want to label me because the reality I live in today is one as a wife and an expectant mother who loves God and my family with all my heart. I now absolutely believe I am living true to my Creator's original design. I knew that change was possible long before Exodus adopted that phrase. Sometimes, people are truly interested in changing and guess what - it is possible.

I totally respect everyone's right and desire to be heard in this matter. It just seems an impasse has been reached and further debate at this point and in this forum would be fruitless.

Alan, I do appreciate your willingness to engage in a level of dialogue. Sometimes it seems the church is a bit reticent to become involved in this issue. I pray that is changing. More than anything I want my actions and responses to those whose views are directly in opposition to mine to be actions and responses that are motivated out of love.

[Mike Ensley]

Michael Bussee said:
"...as for my apology, it was for ANYONE who may have been hurt by my words or actions -- including you."

And then:

"You owe the Survivor's an apology-- not a self-righteous, game-playing brush-off of an apology that wasn't even meant for you."

Just thought that was noteworthy.