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Wednesday, October 03, 2007

Comments

Lex

You decided to believe in something that was not true then, and is not true now. Therefore, conflict will remain your closest friend. I rest my case.

Lex

PS Re: Butch Law's request(under Gay Agenda) for info on Leviticus; lefties shellfish eaters and other items being abominations or punishable by death, which does not conform to current time, but homosexuality / abomination does ... do you plan to tell us your thoughts on this confusing subject? I would think your lag in answering might prolong angst to struggling gays and bi's everywhere, propelling them even deeper into the very abyss you are trying to save them from. Please, clarification would be very helpful. Thanks Alan!

Lex

(Oh, and Alan, the dictionary defines bi-sexual as someone who is attracted to, and/or sexually engaging with, both men and women. One can be celibate,ie nuns and priests, but they will still have a sexually oriented classification due to their internal matrix. Sorry, didn't mean to side step the Leviticus focus)

Mike Ensley

Lex,

Assuming you really are in search of an answer--and aren't just engaging in snarky rhetoric--the distinction in the Levitical law between moral conduct and temporary ritualistic requirements is clear. When one steps back from focusing on a single section to look at the whole Bible, it's clear that the rites of ritual "cleanness" were all about foreshadowing Christ. That's why Jesus "broke" a lot of those commands; he wasn't disobeying them, he was showing that he was the fulfillment of God's requirement for holiness. He makes us holy in a way that no ritual ever could.

But Jesus never did any such thing with God's commandments concerning sexuality. He upheld God's standards in this area, while he treated sexual sinners with dignity and grace, forgave them, and encouraged them to "sin no more."

Frankly, for defining my reality I think the Bible is a little more trustworthy than the dictionary.

Alan Chambers

Lex,

The lie is that homosexuality is a Godly option. If you don't believe what the Bible says then their is no point in debating this subject.

As for the Levitical Law, that question was answered by a lady named Carrie and I didn't think that I needed to rehash the same answer.

As for the dictionary definition of bisexuality..your point? The label does not apply to me.

Alan

Joel

"As for the Levitical Law, that question was answered by a lady named Carrie and I didn't think that I needed to rehash the same answer."
Micheal levine gave a better explanation imo. But you said carrie was right after so, *shrug. Why was he wrong?

You dont have to believe in a definition for it to be true imo. I do believe that sexuality exists and is conscribed but its not static.

I dont understand why you try so hard to erradicate gay ppl(maybe I do... i just dont think it's right)... EX: if they are gay, they need to change, if they dont change, they need to keep trying. IF they choose to live a happy, monogamous gay life we need to stand firmly against them.

Guess it all makes sense when you input zoophilia, orgies and public sex into the equation. WHere does society draw the line and say this shouldn't be?

I do not advocate for freedom, same as all christians... Nor tolerance for something that should not be. But I do believe that a gay couple under the concept of monogamy(as holy couples) should be upheld if it is possible. Unlike zoophilia, its a love, reciprocated, between people, its a love that is cherished by all holy couples, married or not. God, if he were here, im sure he would not be against it.

Draw the 'line' where you God would see fit, this is where I see God would like to draw His 'line'. Then again, maybe its outa fear that the homo-sapien society will no longer value sex, maybe its out of thinking that sex should exist only under the confines of love, maybe im just making a big deal out of nothing... but that is what I believe. Im sorry if I made no sense, im just trying to put the pieces together.

Alan Chambers

Joel,

I followed some of what you were saying. Feel free to keep working it out and posting. Talking through these very complex issues is a good thing to do.

I am not against people. IMO, though, when it comes to monogamy that still doesn't live up to God's standard for sexuality. Monogamy in the bonds of heterosexual marriage is God's best for His creation. Anything short of that,where sex is concerned, is sin--heterosexual or homosexual.

Lex

The Bible conveniently left out WHY homosexuaity is a sin. Something had to have happened to make it to the dust bin, not just a word from God. Great teachers teach their students reason, and God is a great teacher. Maybe a man left out the reason in the text, who knows.
Nonetheless, I believe the Bible's view around homosexuality is rape based. I also believe the church had problems with priests trying to escape their sexuality and found gay quite alive in monastaries. What better way to try and stop it than to demonize it.
Regardless, looking at current time, rape and pedophilia are being well addressed, can we leave the loving people alone? Not if you are a Christian. You must uphold the letter of the law, even if there is no reason given, be blindly faithful, and hack away at the genitals of the homosexual world.
That's truly trajic.

Until religion as a whole stops the fear based shame game, it will continue to pathologize the human race in it's most beautiful form called sex.

Many people do not grow up with hangups about being homosexual. It seems to be a select few that have fear to resolve around their sexuality. If one grows up believing they are bad evil and sinful for being gay, viola, ex-gay movement, which demonizes homosexuality. Hence there is no success with eradicating same sex desire completely, cause, ya can't do it with demons/fear. Unfortunately, because of warped teaching about sex in general on the churches part, we have a quagmire of problems with religious rules devoid of sexual education, running shotgun over the world. Rules are not education, rules are rules. It may have been the rule for homosexuality at that time, that it not be practiced for very ungrounded or grounded reasons. But we don't know.
I believe people are working out their sexuality so that they can evolve past their shame learned by an ungodly teacher, fear. Bodies are neutral, what you assign as good or bad to your behaviors is the glitch if you feel shame. Many homosexual people fall in love and are living full lives. They didn't grow up with faulty programming to overcome. They love their sexuality, and God loves them back for it.

Fortunately, much of the younger generation have made common sense their goal, and have it much more figured out and are no longer putting up with shame based rules that were potentially made for rapists and other negative actions. This sweeping statement that homosexuality is evil/bad is absurd, lacks basis in fact, and is being stopped in its tracks, thank God. When you have let common sense and nature take second place to reality and reason, you have lost the game. We just aren't living in Galileo's moral bandwidth anymore. We actully have running water, and electricity, and computers. We can now watch bigotry end with global communication becoming the norm.
It's only a matter of time and America will have same sex marriage just like Canada, as it should be.
When you stop throwing shame based ideas at the general public i.e. "you're all going to hell if you don't think like us" you will find friends instead of foes. That action facilitates suicide and hate which you, Alan Chambers, promote. You might as well be the leader of the KKK, you are facilitating the same model. Don't like this box either Alan? It is how you are viewed by many. Stop it, you are brighter than that.
One would think that after the blacks and countless other enemies the church has selectively created to emotionally torture for eons, you would learn your lesson. Such is not the case. Hence, Christianity is fast becoming labeled a "cult". The computer age is not on your side. And that rant by Stephen Bennett about the SF Folsom Streetfair, that the media blew you all off about; your PR quality is just out the window. Are you two friends? .
Ghandi said it best, "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians, they are so much not like your Christ." He's a learned man. He makes sense. And he's gotta point. You are all starting to look like foolish goons. I vote for a total redo of our image. I am becoming embarrased to call myself a Christian. AAAAAmen.

Marc

PS Alan -- Lex, in his hard ball attitude, unfortunately, is correct concerning public opinion, Christian and otherwise. Common sense after all is reasonable and should be basic to God's plan. As a Christian, I don't like being made a fool of, and to date, it's hard not to endure ridicule with the current ploy regarding homosexuality. I do get quite embarrased when I cannot buck common sense from balanced people. Would you consider using your blog for brainstorming an image overhaul, subject to possibly changing beliefs that lack common sense and reason?

Jonathan

I dunno Marc, given what I read earlier today, if Alan were to lend his blog for discussion re an "image overhaul" it would lend more credence to Paul Cameron and other's who believe that Alan has reverted to "sodomy!"

I'm sorry, Alan, I couldn't help to plug that little bit of lunacy. It made me laugh. It's one thing to be attacked by those who fundamentally disagree with your position, but dang, now you've set off some of those you would be considered more closely aligned. I guess you can't please 'em all.

j.

Alan Chambers

Jonathan,

I actually disagree with Paul Cameron and the like as much as I disagree with some of the pro-gay side.

The major difference between you and others that I often disagree with and Paul Cameron is that I actually like the majority of the pro-gay individuals that I disagree with.

Jonathan

I hope bringing up that bit of lunacy wasn't inappropriate. It just struck me as so ludicrous that really the only thing to do was laugh. There are a lot of people I have strong disagreement with that I absolutely enjoy great fellowship with. As for Cameron, from what I can tell, you've shown great discernment in keeping your distance.

j.

Seamus

Being gay is a natural normal beautiful variation on being human. Period. End of subject.

Debating the worthiness of gay people, just as they are, to be treated equally under the law is immoral.

Those who wish to continue supporting anti-gay perspectives which vilify, dehumanize and equate gay people with addicts, well, those people are no different than my racist relatives. They're free to believe vociferously in their bigotry and to back it all up with biblical texts but they've been marginalized and so too will you anti-gay homobigot supremacists. Your descendants will be ashamed just as I am of the racists in my family who remain steadfast in their certainty that a god being agrees with their 'righteous' racism.

Ex-gays are no different than the jew or light skinned black in times past who hid from oppression by passing as white or christian. Some did it out of necessity, others out of fear. Regardless, I pity all souls who are in such need of acceptance and in such fear of exclusion that they would oppress their own innate natural orientation in order that they might be welcomed by the fundamentalists. Sad and pitiful.

Darrell

Alan,

That is a good picture of you here on your blogpage. I don't like pictures of myself. Is yours a recent pic? What year was it taken?

Darrell

Boris

Alan said:

"...that I actually like the majority of the pro-gay individuals that I disagree with."

Well, personally I do dislike.... no I actually do hate you. As a man, as a human being but most of all as bigot and hatemonger. The multitude of lies you have spread about gays, the way how you advocate for denying equal rights and protections from gays and your snactiminiousness make you a rather repulsive figure.

I read your article and as usual it is so filled with self- righteousness and faked humility in order to disguise what you truly represent.

I would never even shake hands with you because you truly are the enemy. I do hate you. Not because you lie about being ex-gay but what you believe that claim allows you to do to others. People like me.

You're despicable and your "Allies tOo" campaign is the biggest lie in the history of Exodus. Even bigger than your bloating the figures of "ex-gays"....

I hate you because of your lack of character and the vile hatred your help spreading. At least I have the courage to hate the man who you are and what you represent but not you as part of group called "Christians". I find your person to be disgusting.


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